Good in Theory: A Political Philosophy Podcast
Good in Theory: A Political Philosophy Podcast
38 - GiT Holiday Special with Sep
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It’s the holidays again! And Theory Elf Sep comes on to help celebrate them. We talk about the past year of working on the pod, where I've been for the past two months, how she makes the episode art and what we have planned for the coming year. We also call Rebecca!
In today's episode, good in theories resident theory elf Sep comes on to talk about why she still hates Plato. Why I love him where this pot is going in the future and of course to celebrate the holidays with you hello, good in theory listeners, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays. Happy New Year if I don't speak to you till then, and I probably won't. I'm here today to celebrate the holidays and with me to celebrate is set just like last year when we talked about trading places. Now, I just want to take a minute to explain who SEP is. As you may know, she does all of the episode art for the podcast which is fantastic and I've gotten a lot of compliments on it. But she also does a ton of other stuff around coding theory. So I write the things and I record them but Sep as the only other person who works with me on each episode who read scripts sometimes who listens to drafts of every episode, who talks through this stuff with me and in generally just listens to me complain soap for that CEP. I thank you. And I would like to propose the first toast of this episode to set our resident theory elf and my old friend from Oxford masters days.
Sepideh Haghiri:Oh, set. Thank you. Hi, everyone. Happy New Year. Cheers. Cheers. What you drinking there, Mark?
Clif Mark:Well, I know traditionally we drink whiskey. But I am out of whiskey mostly. And I'm drinking a a Mezcal that I just brought back from Mexico.
Sepideh Haghiri:Right? Because you've been gone a while?
Clif Mark:Yes. Yes, I have. So I guess I should explain that. Look, I get that this is supposed to be a biweekly podcast. And I've tried to keep to that. And I know I haven't published since Halloween. But the reason is that I was persuaded to take a bit of a holiday. It kind of spiraled. I wound up in Mexico for a couple of weeks. And I just got back that's why I have the Mezcal and yeah, and and it's also been extended a little bit because I also now have COVID
Sepideh Haghiri:Sorry That's not funny.
Clif Mark:I spent I spent I spent two weeks in Mexico I didn't have a single Corona I'm back in Canada for two days. Corona it up. Exactly. Wow. Yeah,
Sepideh Haghiri:I just I think it's funny that this is the first time you you have a holiday like ages and ages. You come back and bam punishment I dare you I don't dare you leave.
Clif Mark:I don't regard this as punishment. I regard this as an extension hopefully I will get a lot of pod writing done. I have a lot of projects that are coming up and yeah, sorry for not updating the feed for so long. But we are back. We're back. So set in the interest of the listeners getting to know more about you tell them how you ended up doing all this playdough stuff in all this podcast work with me.
Sepideh Haghiri:Yeah, um, well, I I quit academia a long time ago. I'm like you so I
Clif Mark:was in academia
Sepideh Haghiri:I just I didn't I stopped at a certain point and you kept going very hardcore, which I'm not but I miss theory, you know, and this this was an opportunity to you know, get my theory fix in some other formed and Dziedzic videos on YouTube, you know? And and also I like somehow I've gone through like half a decade of political theory training without Reading Plato. And I thought, you know, this, this was an opportunity. Like, I could see what the fuss is about enlightenment and stuff. So
Clif Mark:So did you did diversity when you over to Plato? Sorry. Well, you know what, let's let's do this because this was the first interview I did was with Paul. And and the question was like, what was his problem with Plato? So, so set? A What's your problem with Plato?
Sepideh Haghiri:Well, you know how Paul in that, in that interview at some point, he said, like, yeah, I read him and read him at some point. I had like this insert, I got it. But then I forgot again. Yeah, so I thought I was it happened to me too, right? I'd like at some point, because I love theories, so and all kinds of it. So I would, I just assumed, this is like, you know, the mothership, or whatever. And I would just read Republic, and I would connect with it at some point and get what it's all about. But maybe I'm just not like an 18 year old boy or something. So it just, it's too late for me to really understand the appeal of this weirdo from Greece. Look, you know, what did happen? I did get a greater appreciation for Aristotle, because he's really boring. And I've always said he's boring. But now I can see why cuz someone needed to just write something down that people would understand or like, have an argument that was, you know, halfway believable, or usable? It was. You know, he's like that, like the boring kid, very interesting parents that that kind of thing. Like I so like, okay,
Clif Mark:Plato's at least the interesting parent, is that what you're saying?
Sepideh Haghiri:Oh, yeah, Plato is very interesting, I guess, because he's just weird. And he doesn't like, present. It's basically the stuff you talked about with Earl from the Schweppe. Podcast, right? He writes in this kind of, I thought, I'll chemical was esoteric, like he writes in a way that is purposefully a little mysterious and stuff. And so it's hard. Like, if you're trying to derive like, you know, workable arguments from that you have to look work a little harder. And, you know, Aristotle doesn't do that. He just writes this stuff down, you know, very dry, very sort of straightforward, and I think it's I, since he was Plato's student, I think it's a kind of, you know, reaction dialectical reaction to like, Plato's fucking bonkers cave this Sunday. You know, I, I have a weird spin. Mithra gonna tell you to no one gets, you know,
Clif Mark:fine. Yeah. Okay. Look, Plato's not easy to read. There's a lot of wild images. But, uh, what kind of art would you have made? If we did Aristotle first?
Sepideh Haghiri:Yeah, yeah. None. Just just, you know,
Clif Mark:just just the title and the subheadings. Maybe,
Sepideh Haghiri:yeah, just that JSTOR. You know, JSTOR, sort of first page PDF you get when you go to any article, it would just be that I guess that's true. He's, he's not exciting. I'm just saying I reading Plato and sort of,
Clif Mark:yeah, I don't like them. I'm just saying he's not Plato. And I didn't realize, well, what a bonus that was and a philosopher.
Sepideh Haghiri:Yes. Yeah, basically. Yes. Thank you. Well,
Clif Mark:thank you for sticking with me through through all of that.
Sepideh Haghiri:Yeah, I can't. I still can't believe you did that.
Clif Mark:Also, yeah. Tell me like, I get complimented on this by everyone who like comes on the pod or, or sees it. They love your episode, or especially the stuff for the Republic. So tell us about that. Because you didn't really have any graphic design or anything. Experience. Right. You just told me? Cliff, I want to help but I don't want to read anything. And I like to play with crayons.
Sepideh Haghiri:Well, yeah, I mean, the crayon thing kind of happened. No, no. Yeah, I did my research on like, early, modern graphic design kind of movements. So I like it. It's not an entirely alien sort of feel to me. And I really like that meme. You know, graphic design is my passion frog. But I've never actually made anything before. I'm in research. Okay. I'm not like I studied artists. I'm not one of them. But this was this is an auditory medium. When I figured who cares, no one's gonna see it. I'm just gonna, you know, make these little episode art things, um, with all these, these sort of very basic Photoshop like apps that I downloaded on my phone, and it kind of, yeah, kind of spiraled out of control and ended up working really hard on the PLATO ones not on the other one so much. But the PLATO ones who really sat down and thought of concepts.
Clif Mark:Yeah, well, the Republic Well, it started right we just had for apology. We just had a bust of Socrates with sunglasses in different colors. Yeah, and then, I mean, I never even knew there was such thing as episode art. I thought that we got Marika, what's up Marika? To do the the pot art and then and then you're like, why don't we just do a little just why don't we just do a little art for each episode? And it started out with that clip art. And then when we got to Republic, you said, Hey, why don't why don't we try to do a little more? Why don't? Why don't we concepts? Why don't we make some propaganda posters?
Sepideh Haghiri:Yeah, this is because I hadn't read it. So I thought it was like a good book. I was like, this is the seminal, you know, theory texts. So I want to do it justice, as far as I can. And yeah, I got a little bit out of control. But I really, really, really had a lot of fun doing that. Because we we came up with some concept, you know, something that you said in the, in the episode that sort of encapsulated sort of the idea of it. And then I, I just thought of like, like, what kind of art would fit with this. So I wouldn't like make up my own. I don't have my own style yet. So I would just sort of, you know, it will do like existing styles, like comic books, or, you know, Russian propaganda or 90s game, like, you know, it's select menus or whatever. And
Clif Mark:these retro futurism. Yeah,
Sepideh Haghiri:that was so much fun to research like that. Again, I'm a researcher, more you can tell. I had a crazy amount of fun, just sort of, you know, digging into. Yeah, like, sci fi book covers from the 70s. You know, and what was your favorite one? What was your favorite? Um, research wise? I think it was the Communist propaganda one, obviously, that was, it was really cool to see sort of this time period where they sort of gave agency to workers in the art. And so it was kind of sci fi but it was very different from the Sci Fi from the 70s in the books, right. So where it was really about, like sort of faceless people in these grades, other civilizations and other planets and stuff and add those two I really really liked because I think there was some some theory core to it. That was really interesting. Also, like, that was my, my research antennas went up, you know? Um, yeah, those were my favorites. So I think it's episode five, and six, that's of Plato of the Republic. But I also really liked the one was like a baby card. When we did the Oh yeah.
Clif Mark:gratulations it's an army that was that was all SEPs idea and hilarious because we were talking about like, the reproductive politics of clipless and the Republic and all of like baby making is geared towards making the permit perfect army so it was you know, there was the gender announcement or whatever gender reveal trends so congratulations, it's an army was sick. That was episode seven Socratic family values. Yeah, the the Communist propaganda one was episode five lies noble lies in gymnastics. And the other one that we're talking about the like sci fi cover from the future is Republic six. How to be a good person.
Sepideh Haghiri:Yeah, that was the one of you saying, Oh, we we made the city in this boy's home.
Clif Mark:Oh, yeah. That was a one of my favorite lines by by Zack.
Sepideh Haghiri:Yes. That inspired also the art.
Clif Mark:Yeah, let's let's also toast. Zack and Rebecca Amsel. Yes,
Sepideh Haghiri:absolutely. Are our idiot princes of Athens.
Clif Mark:Zack and Rebecca. Should I call them?
Sepideh Haghiri:Yes, yes.
Clif Mark:All right. Let me let me get out the old. I don't think they'll answer because like who has a phone right now? Hey, Rebecca. Hi, honey. Good, good. I'm just calling you I'm on the phone with SAP. We're recording a good in theory celebratory New Year's episode.
Unknown:That's very nice.
Clif Mark:And we wanted to call in thank you for all your help and for being such a fabulous at a mantis.
Sepideh Haghiri:That's so cute. Nice. Yeah, we just toasted to you. Thank you.
Unknown:Thanks is to Zack during the call. No,
Clif Mark:I you know, he's look I dialed them to I didn't really expect either of you to answer and that you answered with what the hell was going on? borrow my suspicions.
Unknown:Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm here for you. Okay, honey.
Clif Mark:Thank you. Can you tell me did I win you over to Plato? Um, did you like them by the end? A lot. Uh huh.
Unknown:Did you win me over?
Clif Mark:I don't know. Like did you did you feel that like you were a Plato fan by the end are you're still like, Oh, why does anyone read this guy? Oh,
Unknown:no, fully just a cliff fan.
Clif Mark:Well, thank you. I don't I don't need to keep doing Plato. I guess.
Unknown:Whatever you doing, I'm happy to I'm happy to show up to it.
Clif Mark:Okay, thank you. Rebecca. Do you have any other thoughts to share on the good in theory New Year's celebration?
Unknown:Well, you know it a year of bright light in a dark dark world
Clif Mark:I understand. From something No,
Sepideh Haghiri:she stuck. My delight in the cave and stuff are stuck my years. I'm
Unknown:in Winnipeg. So. I'm sad. I can't hear you better, but that it's been a delight.
Clif Mark:He absolutely has been. Come back soon to Toronto so we can hang out.
Unknown:Okay, bye. Thank you, Becca.
Sepideh Haghiri:Bye. That
Clif Mark:was Rebecca AMS leg, aka the mantis. And while we're here, let's check out her brother Glaucon aka Zachary mica boo Shea for doing the podcast start. Everyone who helped out on this pod Paul Sager, repeat guests and thought experiment guy. And of course, my cousin Clayton tap for the sick theme music. And remixes
Sepideh Haghiri:because that he The reason we're here because we wanted to do the Christmas song. Yeah. So now we've heard from everyone on the pod and what they thought about Plato, but Clif? What do you think about Plato now? Because you would read Republic, I guess a couple of times before you started adapting it for radio, or something, and I'm assuming your views on him have changed because it was a very different approach.
Clif Mark:Yeah, uh, this was by far the toughest time I've ever had with Republic and I read it as an undergrad grad student, I taught it. But this was tougher, because in all those other circumstances, if you're a student, you just have to fool your teacher or your TA and, and you only have one essay to write. So you can kind of skip over everything that is not relevant to your question and focus on the stuff that you do kind of understand. And you can even do that as a teacher, or, or if you're writing research on on Republic. But because I was trying to do the whole thing and adopt the whole thing. I couldn't skip over any of the parts I didn't understand, right? If I got to these passages that were opaque to me, and didn't really make a lot of sense. I'm not saying I got to understand any of them, or all of them, but I had to sit with them long enough to be able to translate it into normal English, that I thought other people would understand. Which means I had to figure out what I thought that it meant. And I guess I realized I had never really done that before with every single passage and Republic. And I'll tell you, it was a slog, it was really difficult because you have these two senses of responsibility. You know, on the one hand, I have an audience that I need to make this listable for. But on the other hand, there's a whole scholarly community that I know about, and I've read a lot of the secondary literature, so I don't want to get any of my interpretations really wrong. So that made it tough that made it a real frustrating slog I have never been so angry at Plato before. But, but there was a payoff, which is that as you know, when you sit and you grind in, you know, you're reading these Blonk tough books, and it's kind of squinting the dark. But eventually, you get these moments where you see something different. The perspective changes, things open up. And it's kind of this shimmery feeling where you see things in new light and interesting. I mean, it's fun. That's what we're, that's, that's where in theory for Right? So. So yes, the approach was different. It was harder, but I got a lot more of those theoretical payoffs because of it.
Sepideh Haghiri:So do you, um, do you think you try to so you try to make it sort of accessible or have these ideas you had these insights? The idea was to bring them to like a bigger audience that isn't held at gunpoint, right to write it, absorb, play playing or whatever. And, you know, it's just voluntary. She was supposed to be fun. Did you feel like the ideas were? Were actually like, I mean, that was that was the thought going in. But then when you were working with it, was that actually the case? Or was it like, was it shimmery and like a theory way that only theory people care about? And, you know, you know what I'm saying like, because he's such a big philosopher, and everybody's supposed to have read him, and we thought he would be interesting for everyone. Is that the case? You think so?
Clif Mark:Yeah. I mean, I hope so. I, that's the reason I made this podcast. Plato is not doing academic philosophy, right? When he, he is in the sense that he started a university called the Academy. And he was working there. But there was no community of professional philosophers that he was writing for specifically, he was writing for your regular, highly educated, posh, wealthy Athenian citizen. And so he's writing on a level that should be interesting to well educated, interesting, interested people. And I think he is, and when he isn't, I think that the big barrier is his writing. And so that was the exercise of the podcast is to try to like bring this book that I think is so interesting, into a language that it could be interesting. So one of the examples that I think of that comes to mind is the episode we did on the noble lie. Um, I read this so many times before, and I always thought it was kind of dumb, right? It's, it's this story of an education where you completely manipulate all these young guardians. And then, when they're ready to become soldiers, when they're grown up, you say, Hey, forget your entire brainwashing education. Actually, you were underground the whole time, and you're being built by God. And so you're just waking up for the first time. Now, on the face of it, this is dumb. Yeah. The kind of Philistine interpretation is you've got these Strauss, Ian's and Neo cons out there. And they say, Oh, the noble lie. That just means people empowered just have to lie to the people, because they can't handle the truth. But then, when I was right, reading it for this podcast, I didn't want it to be so stupid, because I didn't want to write a podcast episode. That's such a boring, boring conclusion to it. And I'm thinking what could what could Plato mean? Because Plato, Plato, a dumb? Um, I start thinking, okay, he's not just singing lie. Right? What it is, is, there's not a choice between the noble lie and just telling people the truth. Because in Republic, you have to have so much education even to have access to the truth. So your real choice, your only choice is between a noble lie in clipless, where you're totally manipulated by philosopher kings in its in his like, perfect, comprehensive education. It's that noble lie or you have the ennoble chaos of lies that we all grew up with the scraps of stories from here political propaganda from there, our parents fairy tales, from here, cartoons. Nice. Either way, we're growing up with all this ideology and education that shapes us. That isn't identical to the truth. The only difference is, whether this is all there's no order to it or not. So that's like the first thing I thought, wow. Okay, this is really interesting, because this story about this totally implausible story about an education is actually a But the real education we all get. Yeah. And, and this is the dumbest part of the noble lie on my original reading is when he tells people, Hey, forget your whole past, forget your whole education that never happened, you're actually asleep, it was a hallucination. This is silly. Nobody will believe that's entirely implausible I, I always thought it was kind of weird, didn't get it, I'm sitting with it. I'm thinking with it. And then I'm like, Holy shit, actually. This is also true. This is also just how you act because for example, I know that I've had a lot of influence in education. Nurture is a factor in how I see the world, and what's going on. But when I look out at the world, I forget my education, I just see things for how they are. I don't remember all the work in the shaping and the nurture that went into giving me the frameworks through which I see the world. So this idea that people will readily just forget that they've had an education and indoctrination and believe that they're seeing the world for just what it is, is actually true. And that kind of blew my mind a little cool. Especially because Plato was doing it in this kind of Winky weird way where he's telling this crazy story that sounds implausible. But it's actually about the real world and his audience Glaucon and Adam, mantas doesn't really understand, but we can kind of get it as the reader. And like, this is this is the argument for why Plato over someone like Aristotle, like, like you were saying earlier, I mean, you can tell me that human beings are all influenced by education and nurture, and their viewpoints in the world are affected by the background. And I will believe you, but to tell me in the way that Plato does with this spectacular myth of the noble lie in the metals, and the complications of the irony in the different audiences like that is, on another level, it's dazzling, and it has a kind of effect. For me, that just telling me the straightforward argument doesn't. So I mean, I know. I know, I haven't win you over to Plato, or Paul, or Rebecca turns out, but there are people out there who I think appreciate this. I mean, I know I do. So, yeah. Write to us. Tell us that you like Plato. And that step is
Sepideh Haghiri:yes. So and there was no I mean, I honestly, I liked the episode I liked. I liked the interpretations, you know, I think we should have just stuck to our original bargain and not read Plato and in Oh, the
Clif Mark:bargain wasn't that we don't read Plato, it was that you don't really play.
Sepideh Haghiri:But I did. I did read a lot of, nonetheless, two books. But um, so I just want to maybe clarify that this, you know, he didn't win me over in text. But if I hadn't had the text, and I would have just listened to your interpretations, and maybe I would have felt different because I did like the episodes, you know, maybe you would have been
Clif Mark:bamboozled into reading it.
Sepideh Haghiri:And then I would have concluded that nice songs. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Good. Good theory. Good. Playdough propaganda cliff. Well done. Thank you. I just wanted Yeah, I think, because we did, we finished the Republic, and we kind of moved on to new things. But I really want to sort of still celebrate the fact that we did this whole well, you mostly did this whole thing, because if you would have told me in advance, if I'd read the book, you would have told me I'm gonna adopt adapted for radio and you know, I'm gonna do it with dialogue and all I'd be like, no, no, no, no, don't. The guy's insane. This is done adaptable. Just don't. But I didn't. And I am, you know, I sign up and I still can't believe you pull it off, because it's really it's really kind of weird text. And I think we did something that hasn't been done before where like, you're actually get a sense of like, the dialogue of it instead of just sort of the basic ideas in every book. And I just mean, I just wanted to sort of celebrate that a little. Well, thank you, sir. Yeah, no, I mean, okay, yeah, he's being so modest. But it's actually really cool. So I'm toast to, to play it to you to play it out to
Clif Mark:the Republic is dead. Thank God Long live the Republic.
Sepideh Haghiri:Okay, let's go with that. Cheers. Cheers. Alright, so that was a big accomplishment. We did that it's done. Um, and so ghosts of Christmas past I want to look at the future now a little bit cliff, why don't you tell me and and the people what? What they can expect from good in theory going forward? Not more Plato. Right?
Clif Mark:Look I'm not saying I'm never gonna be more Plato but I'm sure it's I'm not gonna go through all the dialogues this this was never supposed to be a Plato podcast you know like originally it was just gonna be me and Jeff berkesan, who was a guest on the show, going through the Canon the poly sigh one on one syllabus of political theory, Plato, Aristotle, Hobbes, Rousseau, blah, blah blah in more detail than anyone else had, but still, like at a relatively brisk pace settled in spend a couple of months on Republic. But I've been doing this now for years. I mean, I worked on it for years before I even launched the pod and we just finished Republic this summer. So that plan, just go through the syllabus, that we're not going through with that plan. I'll never finish. So there's gonna be a little more variety going forward. I still want to do some of the big books I want to do. Hobbes is Leviathan that Sherlock was so and I wanted to the second discourse and some of his other books. He's really fun, and completely insane. So I want to do some of that, but that's not all. So I'm gonna mix in some more interviews, some more episodes on single articles or essays like we did on Fukuyama or wolf?
Sepideh Haghiri:Yeah, I really like that formula. That's cool.
Clif Mark:The what the single article? Yeah.
Sepideh Haghiri:Because they're not as famous as the big books. But they're, they're still a big deal in any political theory class. I think. Not. Not all of them, but a lot of them and I haven't read all of them. So I got a lot out of those. And you think I think it fits. You know, it's kind of like, Oh, tell us what the fuss is about?
Clif Mark:Yeah. I mean, who cares about a class, but a lot of them are interesting. Like, I find Fukuyama essay interesting in its own right. Yeah, I don't. I'm not trying to help people do their homework. I'm not one. It's, it's to try to understand what the hell's going on. You know?
Sepideh Haghiri:Yeah, it's more like people hear the idea of the end of history. And I can just imagine them going well. Yeah, yeah. And then we,
Clif Mark:I mean, that was possibly the best title in political theory, because it got so much attention. Just the end of history, and
Sepideh Haghiri:what do you what do you mean by famous now,
Clif Mark:you think time is going to stop this crazy person? Anyway, so those I'll just hold, still do some canonical books, I want to do some interviews, I'm gonna do some single articles, but also, more episodes just on concepts and questions. So something I've been working on a lot. And I've written on before, and I'm excited about this coming year is a short series on the idea of meritocracy. Because it's sort of an ideal that a lot of us grew up with, but it's shifting, it's under attack right now. So I want to do a couple of episodes about why I think it's dumb, and maybe believing it might make you a worse person. Nice. So just like to explain why a lot of people are mad at meritocracy. Now, that'll take a couple episodes, but it's not specifically tech space. It's more conceptual. So I would say, going forward, you can expect all those kinds of things. And also, we take requests. So if there's any text or concept or whatever that you're interested in, let us know reach out on social or email and yeah, if there's ideas that
Sepideh Haghiri:you hear about, I know social media or in the news, just something that's in the air, you know, you don't really understand why everyone is repeating this word or concept or idea or thing. And it's doesn't have to be specifically theory or politics related. If, if it's been thrown around in the zeitgeist say then it's there's probably theory about it. Right? I mean, bring it to you.
Clif Mark:If you I'm, I'm a political theorist by training, but we also did the episode on you know, why I was bad at falling in love when I was 20. Based on Proust and Rousseau. So, Syria is a big tent, and it's intentionally so we'd love to, you know, check out some, some different areas of areas of thought. So yeah, let us know if you've been wondering about anything, and
Sepideh Haghiri:everything you want to know about theory. But we're afraid to ask or
Clif Mark:ask what about what about you set? Um, why don't you? Why don't you model for everyone how to make a request on good in theory and tell us what you one one topic you might like to see. In this coming year? Yeah, yeah, I can do that. And you'll be doing the art for it. So keep that.
Sepideh Haghiri:Well, one of the things where there's actually a lot of art for it's, it's become a bit of a meme and is this theorist called Mark Fisher? Who, yeah, it's been making making the rounds in meme form last couple of years. And he was just covering half of my Instagram feed. And that's, I mean, that's it's kind of a selection bias, you know,
Clif Mark:qMk
Sepideh Haghiri:for a certain type of theories, like, you know, like, artsy Marxist, kind of theories, he is a household name, but it's, but I feel like he is maybe speaking to people at this particular point in time, maybe just beyond that kind of malt Coke, Marxist cultural critique, you know, maybe we'll be appealing to them in a more more sort of immediate way. So it's not just for theory nerds anymore, hopefully. So I thought maybe we could do a couple of episodes on him, bring him let people know what their fuss is about.
Clif Mark:I love I love reading Mark Fisher, you know, he's, he's fun to read, especially if you're a theory person. There's just tons of ideas flying everywhere. I think he'll be hard to nail down, you know, thesis wise, but definitely, I would like to bring some of that to good in theory. So I will. Let's put it let's put it on the on the calendar. Great. But sometime sometime in the next year, that's that's how I keep looking.
Sepideh Haghiri:Yeah. So people, that's how easy it is.
Clif Mark:Right. So reach out. Make a suggestion. And, and Cliff will read the books. I will if, if I want to read the books, or read the books, I'll make episodes. I'm not gonna I'm not promising to do every request. But I will read all your emails and probably reply to them. So yeah, do it. And and I guess, I guess is that is that it's up? Do we have anything else to?
Sepideh Haghiri:I think we've covered all of the Christmases Christmas goes where we're good for this year. So this year is done. We just wanna we just want to check in with you. Say hello, and happy holidays. And just thank you for listening. And a special thanks to our Patreon.
Clif Mark:Yes, everyone, everyone who listened. Thank you. Happy holidays. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year. But yeah, thank you, especially to people who supported on Patreon. You really help us keep it going. We appreciate your support. And I would like to shout out to new patrons that we have. Even though I haven't been publishing episodes for two months. Two people decide to pitch in Robert Powell and a Patreon user Santeri. I'm not sure if that's the right pronunciation, but thank you both. We appreciate it. And we are excited about the stuff we're gonna be doing in the new year. New Year. See ya.
Sepideh Haghiri:Bye.